The Exorcist — 30 Years Later

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What if the most terrifying movie ever made was actually based on a true story? It's been over 30 years since the last time we watched The Exorcist. We're revisiting a film that terrifies a generation, uncovering the real story that inspired it, and asking the question: does it still scare the hell out of us? This is inquiring. I'm your host, Michael Walker, and with me is my good friend Stephen Dudley, who is still alive and well. Stephen, how are you feeling today after having watched the Exodus with me last night? Late, late last night.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

I feel pretty good. I was a little creaked out, I have to admit, after it was done and I was walking around the house by myself a little bit, but wasn't too bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Now we watched this and then immediately immediately went to bed. So did you have any trouble going to sleep or have any nightmares?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

No, I I thought about it when I was going to sleep and I was like, uh, you know, I it was alright.

Our First Memories of the Movie

SPEAKER_00 1:37

It was fine. So I think we should talk about like when we first saw this. So I didn't see this movie until I was in seventh grade, and I don't know how old I would have been, maybe 12 or 13. Is that sound about right? Um, I was uh my par my parents were separated, and my mom and I had went and lived with a friend of ours, a friend of the family in California. Now they uh she had an older daughter who was like four years older than me. So weeks prior to watching this movie, she had introduced me to the Ouija board, which also makes an appearance in this movie. And uh, so that was kind of creepy. And then somehow, I don't know what the circumstances were, but I wound up several weeks later being by myself at night, and the Exorcist came on, and for whatever reason I decided to watch it. It was you know, you know, this is the 70s, 80s, the things they put on TV back then, uh you know, wouldn't pretty much fly today, but uh unless it's on a streaming service. But I sit there and watched the movie, and I was so petrified that during commercial breaks I'd run outside. It was you know, Southern California, so it wasn't uh and it was wintertime, but it wasn't like you know, but it was still cooler in the evenings, you know, it drops in the 60s or something. And I just remember being out there and just like I just didn't want to, I don't know why commercial breaks, maybe because it didn't give me time to think about it, but I'd run outside and just wait for the I'd look peek through the window, wait for the come back on, then run back into the house. I guess I didn't want to be in the house by myself. Uh but it petrified me so much that I never watched it again my entire life until last night. And even when I would see clips of it, you know, it would bring back those visceral uh memories of s of watching it. Uh what about you? What was your what do you remember about your first experience?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Well, I didn't I didn't see the uncut version when I was a kid. It was it was same. Yeah. It was cut, obviously, for obvious reasons. And just a warning to anyone who wants to go out and watch it with their kids, don't. It's not a kid's movie. There's things in it that you know, not for kids. So uh but even with the cut version, it terrified me. Just just from the the makeup of uh the girl, Linda Blair, uh she just totally transformed in that movie. Yeah, and she she just did an amazing job. But I remember uh j just watching it last night, I remember I'm like, hmm, I can see why this terrified me because some of the effects that they did, even though they nowadays are probably a bit dated, but they still did a really good job on some of it. Like I remember uh the part kind of towards the end where it's a side profile of of her laying in bed and you see just beyond her, uh sitting beside her is the the old priest and he's doing his exorcism and you see the pups of smoke coming from her mouth and she's like writhing around and it's just creepy as it can be. Yeah. And I I'm looking at the artistic side of how they did that, and I'm like, this is really well done. So remember Yeah, I know it came out like what in the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

So Yeah, 1973, yeah. So it was all practical effects, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, and that's why it I think it was so terrifying as kids for us, because it was just so uh so bizarre. And uh, you know, the part I'm just spoiling it, but you know, if you haven't seen Exodus by now, I mean come on. But that part when she was coming down the stairs, yeah, that's the creepy part that I remember seeing, not right maybe ten years ago, and I was like, ah, geez.

The Spider-Walk and Iraq Prologue

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Funny you mentioned that that was not in the original, that was the part of the extended version. So yeah, yeah, that's pretty creepy.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

I don't know why they would take that out because that like knocked it out of the park, as far as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I don't know how they did that back then. That was I mean, that was pretty impressive because her head was all twisted, she was walking on all fours downstairs and throwing up blood. It uh it was a really impressive special effects. Um I thought. And you know, we both commented it as we're watching it, but I don't remember that whole entire sequence of the archaeological dig at the very beginning. I don't either. Uh and I guess that never made the tie-in. They they did I guess they never really, at least in my mind, didn't tie in that that idol that he found and how that how that was significant in the movie. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And it it's uh, you know, at least with some question marks over your head, but we we at least we know that the the little medallion is is tied to the possession because the priest gave it back to the mother. You remember at the end of the right.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

So maybe it wasn't the idol at all, that little devilish looking idol. Maybe it was that medallion.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, because he says that this looks out of place, like in the beginning he said it looks out of place. But honestly, that entire beginning sequence of the archaeological dig and that time in northern Iraq, I believe it was. Yeah, uh, I think they just cut that out uh in the version that we saw when we were kids because maybe maybe because I uh you look at it and you're like, is this whole thing really necessary? And it's really probably not, you know. So I think they just cut it out.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Uh oh well, I need to go back and and maybe I'll do some research off this and uh see if that was also part of the extended cut, and it might have been, I don't know. Uh I know the spider walk was and some of the dialogue at the end um was in the extended because there was some debate um between the I think the director and the the writer. But um, yeah, I I mean, and as you mentioned, or we both commented when we were watching it, it it was really the uh film quality was really great. I mean, I don't know if Amazon did anything, or the owners who owns the rights to that movie when they released the extended version, if they did any enhancements to it or anything.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

But I'm sure they did. It just too looked really good. Yeah, it's too high quality. So I think they did some restoration on it and uh major processing.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

That very, very opening sequence though, where the camera is looking at the window, the famous window, where uh several people lose their lives out of. Uh, and then it's that grainy 70s, and then the uh you hear the some uh sound effects in the background and the camera pans and it's nighttime, and it just it it definitely puts you in in the mood. And but then when we cut to the archaeological scene, it that kind of took me out of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Yeah, it it I didn't feel any kind of maybe towards the end when he's standing off facing the idol or that statue. Yeah. That was a little creepy because uh yeah it they're amping up the sound effects and you know the Right. Yeah. But but during that most fun scene, I wasn't really yeah, I wasn't really feeling, you know, spooked out or anything. I did uh remember and this ties to actual ghost stories and some haunting stories I've seen, but uh the scene where the detective's out in his car and he looks over up at the window and you she see the shadow of the girl like moving like off to the right, like from center off to the right. Well at that point she's supposed to be strapped in in bed, strapped down in bed. Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

You know, yeah, it's very subtle.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Very subtle, but you look at it like oh my god. And then they go up there and she's still strapped down. Well, there are there are scenes from TV shows talking about ghost stories where very similar to that kind of stuff, you know. And to me, it's just like the the thought of the unknown when you see a shadow in a window like that, like upstairs, you're like, Oh man, what the worst feeling in the world is thinking that you would have to go up there into that

Why the Movie Was So Shocking

SPEAKER_01 10:09

room.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

You know. Hey friends, if you're enjoying the show, don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button. It really helps us grow the channel and keep bringing you more content just like this. Thanks for your support and back to the show.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Seeing that movie last night, I was just like, Wow, man, you know, did you really need to go there? You know, it's just kinda very grungy. You know, and there's there's an element of it that's like I think you could be scary without being that vulgar. You know? Because especially in the seventies, because you're talking about this is like right after the sixties. So and before that it was like super conservative. And all of a sudden, bam, the sixties, and then they're putting out movies like this, you know. Yeah. But I don't get me wrong, I appreciate the artistic aspect. I think it was brilliantly done. And it it's for shock value, it that they've succeeded.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Shock value. That that was that I think the cursing, you know, the F-bombs and all that stuff would definitely admit to because you're doing it to you're saying it to an actual level priest, you know, a Catholic.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, and this is supposed to be a Jesuit a 12-year-old kid.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah, that makes it so it just compounds it, you know, it just makes it yeah. But you know, I was thinking about it, and I mentioned this before, and this is true. I a lot of time in my youth growing up, we didn't have a TV. So I'm I'm wondering what compelled me. And at this point, I as I mentioned, my parents were separated, and we were living with somebody else who had a TV. So I'm wondering what made me compel. Maybe it's I just happened to stumble upon it, you know. I don't think I planned it or anything, but but I was just curious what made me think, oh yeah, this would be a great idea to watch this by myself at night.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Well, I had I had two brothers that yeah, I'm I'm the youngest brother, and they were just of course I I would throw it back at them too, but man, they were just merciless with you know, I'm in the back room, they shut the lights off and close the door, you know, the exorcist girl's gonna get you, you know, and they close the door, and I'm like stuck in, you know, and trying to start you know, wrecking my way towards the door in the dark.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Start growling through the door, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Oh yes, just you know, so that that made it worse. That made it the the agony drag on for some time after that.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

But you know it's funny, uh now that I think about it, not long after this happened, I actually my mom and I moved to Florida to live with her aunt. My parents were still separated at this point. I actually went to the church and had myself uh not baptized but dedicated, I think. And they did some little sh ceremony. I'm wondering if that's that watch that movie had some uh effect on me that I would do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

But uh I could see that it it's it's such a I mean, yeah, if if you're religious, I could see that that would just scare you straight. Compound it, right? Oh sure. Yeah. Because it's like, well, I don't want to have anything to do with that. Yeah, so your your instinct I I think is to go the opposite direction, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah. It's funny because in the movie the uh when she approaches him to try to get um the father, he's a psychology he's a psychologist or uh he's uh What the the priest? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Well he he started off he he he started off in priesthood and the priesthood sent him to like Harvard and and all to get him educated as a psychiatrist. So he was kind of buzzed.

The Real Exorcism Behind the Film

SPEAKER_00 13:46

So right. So she approaches him in like form of exorcism. He was like, What are you talking about? That hasn't been done since the 17, 1800s or whatever, which isn't true. In fact, the reason why that that movie exists is because in 1949 this actually happened to a young boy that uh and we'll get into that to the backstory to what inspired this movie. But before we get into that, the true story behind the exorcist was talk about a little bit about the phenomenon when this movie came out. Do you remember when it came out? Because I remember there being people talking about their throwing up, running out of the theater, you know, fainting. I remember hearing that. I think I remember, but somehow I still remember that.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

I I remember hearing about that, uh it but it probably wasn't at the time the movie came out. Right. That's what I'm thinking. Maybe yeah, if we were four years old, is it 1974? Is that 1973? Okay. So I'd be three to four years old. Uh I wouldn't have known about that. So I would have heard about it later. But I I I categorize that into the same time frame of Amityville horror, but I think that happened 77 to 78 or something like that. So it's a little later.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah, but when it came out on TVs. But yeah, it's weird. I have this I have this memory of like hearing about those phenomenon or you know, seeing it on TV or something. Maybe maybe it it resurfaced again once the they put it back on TV or something. But do you recall knowing anyone who saw the movie when it first came out?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Uh the only one I know of is my uncle.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Um your dad's brother?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Uh my mom's brother.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

And do you remember did he say anything to you about it?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you that. It was pretty funny because my uncle has a pretty good sense of humor. And uh he says, Yeah, you know, I I went to go see it and he, you know, got done seeing it, and of course it creeped him out. And he was he drove up into uh his driveway and he was reluctant to go in the house, but he was like, you know what, this is ridiculous. I'm a grown man. So he gets up, walks in the house, and starts flipping on lights and all that, and just kind of like just you know, he's like, Yeah, you know, yeah, I got this kind of a thing. And then he walked he walked through the hallway, he and he says he felt something just like brush like right up. And he says, uh he just like chill down. Yeah, and uh then he turned around and he realized that it was the string on the attic door hanging down. It hit him. Hearing him say it, because uh you know, it's just funny. But it it gets you, even even if you're an adult, it still gets you because yeah, it just does. It's I think it's just part of our instinct. It's you know it's a psychological effect, you know. And I do remember some people, and it's it it was my peers, like I didn't hear this from adults, it was like kids my own age talking about it, and they were talking about some of the the parts that we were seeing last night that were like, wow, that's like way out there, you know. And I'm like, God man, your parents their parents just let them watch this stuff. Um, but that's about it.

What Scared Us Most

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah, you know. What do you remember back then what scared you the most when you first watched it? Was the scary part scariest part that you remember?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

It was her face.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Her face and the sound effects with the with her expression. Yeah. That was because here we have this sweet girl, and she's clearly not, and she doesn't look any sweet at all. She looks nope. I mean, that's like the epitome of just monster, you know, was her face. In fact, like jump scares, you know, they have those little jump scare videos. A lot of times they'll use some some variation of her face, yeah, jumping out at you, you know. Some of those videos are pretty funny to watch, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

So for me, I agree, it's the face and the sounds, but I think the thing that scared me the most is uh that I remember is when her head twists all the way around. Yeah, yes. That was not because that that went from I don't know, something more something more believable to be like, holy crap, you know, she has to be in order to pull off that maneuver, yeah. Which we know physically it's not possible, but uh you know, as a kid you're not thinking about that. I think that was the pinnacle.

Does The Exorcist Still Hold Up?

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Uh definitely the face and the sounds, and then the pinnacle was when her head twists around. So from what you remember when you watched it before, and then when we watched it last night, anything hit differently? Um, does it hold up to what you remember?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Well, n no. I mean it it didn't terrify me. It it creeped me out. Uh the stair scene still kind of was I was just like, gosh. And then, you know, some of those other scenes are pretty uh pretty rough. But uh even though I still was looking at some of it, some of the special facts, I'm like, mm, I can see how they did that. You know, the the magic is gone. Some of the scenes not so much. Because I was like j like the profile one I was telling you talking about earlier, I was like, God man, that is just really well done. From just from an artistic standpoint, it just looked really good and creepy and it was just well done. But uh overall I would say I was not scared, although I was prepared to be at some points, uh, because I r I remember being scared in some of those moments. Usually you know when they're off doing something normal and then it gets a little too quiet, and you're like, oh, they're gonna do something, you know. I didn't really even some of the the sounds that popped out, like where they're trying to like they were they're on one scene then they switched over and it was the medical machine, you know, the x-ray machine going you know. Right, and it's spinning around or I didn't I didn't jump at that, and I I'm kind of surprised. Normally I would jump at stuff like that, but so overall the the scariness factor it was way down as compared to a kid. The face uh still creepy not as not as creepy. Um it just doesn't scare me like it did. Yeah, uh, but but there's still creepiness there. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, and uh for me, uh you know, I watched it on my laptop because you we we did a watch party on Discord, and uh so I was watching on my laptop, so I and I had some lights on, so so that it was because you were scared, but go ahead. I was super scared. Um went to bed without me. So I was watching it by myself. Um I think because it was on my laptop, you know, there's still some lights on, and it didn't quite hit the same for me, but there definitely it definitely had a creep value, uh, but I wasn't like jump scared, scared. There's a couple moments, maybe when the like you said, the spider walk down the stairs. That was kind of yeah, yeah. Uh but the sound effects, and then we talked about the the theme music. You thought that that was from Jason. Uh I thought it was from Halloween with Molly. Oh, Halloween, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sounded very similar, I thought. There's some similarities there, but man, that is a creepy, creepy theme song. I mean, uh as soon as you hear that sound, that music, it just puts you there, you know. Um, and I had mentioned that those who are interested and want to connect with us beyond the the podcast. Sometimes Steve and I will play Seven Days on Twitch and and live stream it. I I thought some of the sounds remind me from Seven Days, some of the zombie sounds. So I'm wondering if they digitized those and you know reworked them a little bit. But it could be.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, it could be.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I mean, that'd be cool if they did. Uh but it sounded very similar to me, some of those zombie sounds from the game Seven Days to Die.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, that's that game will get you too. Yeah. It got got us both like I think, or even I think it even got Kim. Didn't it get us like within the last couple of weeks?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It got her last night or the night before when we played, because we're all uh on we're all have our headsets on and and uh connected through Discord and she you know jumped and uh you know Well the well the scream the screamer is creepy like the girl on Exorcist.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

She's really it is she's got that level of creepiness. So uh that one if I turn around I don't don't know she's there. And then she's there. It's like kind of like

Why Friedkin’s Approach Worked

SPEAKER_01 22:02

a jump scare.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

That's what gets you. Like you're just kind of doing your own thing, you know, mind your own business. And you turn around because you don't hear them. For whatever reason, they don't make any sound. You turn around, there's one right in your face. That that's pretty pretty jump scare scary. So let's talk about the movie and some of the history behind that. So one of the things that makes the exorcist unusual is how seriously it takes the story. So William Freikken, he's the director. He doesn't present the movie like a typical horror film, right? There's a lot of setup, a lot of normal life. Everything's just normal. There's in fact, we really don't get into the scary stuff until the last third of the movie. You know, there's a lot of buildup. Just fan ordinary family life, doctor visits, hospitals, you know, just kind of the background life of all the actors. Uh Steven, do you think this makes the movie still work even 50 years later? Uh this type of approach?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, I don't see why not. I mean, if you don't have some kind of setup, I I guess it it it uh calibrates itself to normal life first. Right. And it ramps you up into this craziness. So I think that that adds that probably does add to the scariness of it. I think it gives uh more quality rating to the film for that.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, you gotta have a baseline. If you don't have a if you are if you start out uh scared, you know, it's scary. A lot of times that doesn't work because you don't have a baseline to go off of. And I guess that was the approach the director uh wanted to take with this, was to make it seem more real. That's probably why when we get to the scary parts, it it makes it more scary because it feels like it could be real, you know. So interestingly enough, that movie they made it for twelve million dollars, which is a lot of money. This is 1973. You know, that that's a significant uh amount. In fact, to put it in perspective, in 1977, Close Encounters was made for 20 million, and that had a lot more, you know, special effects and you know, or you know, more of a big budget movie. So it wasn't that much uh cheaper than and you know, four years later when they made uh Close Encounters. So, you know, for especially for horror film or or scary film, that was a pretty big budget for 1973. If you had to guess in the 1970s, where would you think that this movie falls as far as gross income? Yeah, how much money did it make during that time? I'd have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I'd have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

I would maybe say from one to ten. Where would you think it would fall on that list?

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Oh, from one to ten. Oh yeah, well it was I know it was popular, so I'd say probably an eight. Eight out of ten? Eight out of ten, at least. Yeah, because

The Exorcist Becomes a Cultural Phenomenon

SPEAKER_01 24:57

it was popular.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Well, get this. It was actually the third ice grocery movie right behind Star Wars and Jaws. Oh wow. It it brought in almost a half a billion dollars, four hundred and thirty-one million dollars globally.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Wow.

The Director’s Cut and Restored Scenes

SPEAKER_00 25:13

That was that was in the 70s. It's obviously made more money since then. That's so it so it beat out Greece, Close Encounters of Third Kind, Superman, which is another huge movie, The Godfather, Saturday Fever, Rocky, yeah, uh, Moonbreaker. I didn't realize that. So this movie made more than all those movies, and you know, including uh James Bond, The Moonbreaker. Uh made twice as much globally as that movie. So I didn't realize that it was like he made a movie for 12 million and it brings in that much money. So that's why they kept franchising it, right? Kept making more and more Exorcist movies. Never stood up to the original, though, of course. Yeah, but I thought that was pretty interesting. Only behind Star Wars and Jaws uh for the 1970s. Um so we watched watched the director's cut, and it had extended scenes, uh, which restores roughly 11 minutes that weren't in the original 1973 theatrical release. And that includes that famous Spider Walk uh scene that we talked about, and additional scenes regard uh involving Reagan, the 12-year-old girl who uh is the center of the possession plot, and more dialogue between Father Marin, the oldest priest brought in to perform the Exorcist, and Father Karis, the younger Jesuit priest and psychiatrist. Uh he's you know he's been struggling with his faith throughout the movie. You know, his mom dies. And so those added scenes give us a little more insight into what the priests think is actually happened to Reagan and what the demon may be really trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

It also helps define a little bit how the demon operates in manipulating people by regurgitating the hurt from his mother's passing and things like that. So that it lends to giving shedding light on what a how a demon might try to manipulate you, at least in in the story.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

So you think that those added scenes added to the movie uh versus subtracted? Yes, overall, yeah. Yeah, I think I think so too. Uh now again, I don't know if that archaeological part was in the original theatrical release, I'll have to look that up. But if it wasn't, then I would say that would probably stand to be cut out because it it really didn't have a strong connection to the rest of the movie, in my opinion. Yeah, I I agree with that. I mean I mean it maybe if they shortened it quite a bit, because that opening archaeological scene is pretty long, you know. So I was expecting a big payoff, and I I really didn't feel like there was.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Uh yeah, and you can imagine how much they spent just on those scenes getting.

What Is The Exorcist Really About?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, because that was yeah, that was not there's a lot of extras in that in that part of the the movie. So what is the Exorcist really about? Uh although everyone remembers Reagan, the you know, the little girl who got possessed, the real emotional center of the movie may actually be Father Damien Karas. You know, he's the one who lost his mom. He's already asking to leave the church. Uh he doesn't feel fit. You know, he's drinking. Uh which uh you know, we were both surprised that there was a scene where two priests meet at a bar, and you know, Father Karras is actually smoking throughout the movie.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

You know, I realize it's everybody everybody smoked.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

I mean, I do remember that about the 70s, but you know, I just didn't it was kind of shocking to see uh a priesthood, but maybe that was just an added adds to the fact that he's kind of checking out from being a priest. And you know, by the end, the possession becomes almost as much of a battle over him, other father Karis, as it over to Reagan, because you know he ultimately takes the possession from her and then sacrifices himself. Yeah, he's the real hero. Well, he and the other priest are the real heroes, but sure. Yeah. And I don't you know that's that's another thing. I don't remember him doing that. I don't remember. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Uh I do, but I'd forgotten it. Uh I forgot how it ended. But I did remember once once he did it, I was like, oh yeah, that's right. But I didn't I wasn't thinking of it when we first started watching the movie.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah. So do you think the movie was more about uh Regan, the the possessed girl, or do you think it had more to do with Karis's story and his struggle with being a few years?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Pri more with his struggle, I would say. Yeah, I say that that human thing, that human emotional um struggle, I think is what that's real.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

That's the real thing that everyone goes through, right? No matter what your career is. Yeah, I agree. I'd say it it's on par, or even more, you know, now that I've seen it again, especially with the added scenes. It definitely does feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, it's a good point that you bring that up too, because I don't think that's very obvious.

William Peter Blatty and the Real Case

SPEAKER_00 30:12

No, because everyone thinks of her. They think of Ray Regan, you know, the she's the one that's being possessed, you know. Um so Wim Peter Bladey, he's the author of the book and who ultimately produced the movie and wrote the screenplay. He was from Georgetown. He graduated, uh, he was a graduate who learned about this strange 1949 exorcism while he was a student there. And years later, he began seriously researching the case, and eventually uh it corresponded to to directly Father William Alderham, uh, one of the priests who had actually participated in the exorcism. Bladey published the exorcist in 1971 and then wrote the screenplay and produced the movie himself. Does knowing that Bladey actually communicated with one of the priests who was there change the way you look at the story at all? Or that he was actually a student there?

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah, it kind of makes it real.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

You know, which makes it even more creepy.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

And I didn't know that until I started uh looking into this. I didn't realize he had actually gone to that school. That's where he learned about the story, you know. And it does make it feel a little more grounded. You know. So who was the real child behind Reagan? Well, Regan McNeil was inspired by a real child, but almost immediately the similarities began to disappear because the actual subject uh was a 13-year-old boy who was later identified as Ronald Edwin Hunkler. For decades he was known publicly by only his pseudonyms, which were Ronald Doe or Robbie Manheim. Does knowing the story inspired by a young boy change your perspective at all, change your opinion about the movie at all?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Not really, but it makes me wonder why they did that. Maybe maybe having a girl is a little more vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

That's what I'm thinking too. Yeah. Yeah. I think that probably um amplifies it a little bit, you know, especially for that time period, you know. Yeah, having a girl, a young little girl or young girl makes it more um and also honestly, those faces and and those sounds coming from a little girl definitely seems more creepy.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

That that's a good point too, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Especially when those sounds are like happening and you're you're looking at the scene and she's writhing around, but she's not really her mouth isn't moving. So these sounds are coming out. It's like where are these sounds coming

The True Story of Ronald Hunkeler

SPEAKER_01 32:32

from?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

You know, it's like Yeah, and if and they're all male voices, so the fact that they're coming from a little girl makes it even more and that may have been the sole reason why, because maximum creepy. Right. Yeah. So let's get to the real story behind the exorcist. So the story that eventually inspired the Exorcist begins in Maryland in January 1949 with a 13-year-old boy named Ronald Edwin Hunkler. For decades his identity was protected and he was known publicly by names like Ronald and Robbie. According to the surviving accounts, Ronald's family began hearing strange scratching noises and other unexplained noises inside their home. Before long, the surface seemed to center on Ronald himself. His bed was reportedly shaking or moving. Objects were said to move without explanation, and scratches and marks began appearing on his body. Now the family apparently didn't immediately jump to a demonic possession. They reportedly consulted doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, and they were of Lutheran faith. They weren't Catholic. And they so they contacted a Lutheran minister, Reverend Luther Miles Schultz. And the story that came down through later accounts was that ordinary medicine couldn't explain what was happening to this young boy. So around this point, we encountered one of the most famous and most questionable episodes in the entire story. According to later retellings, Catholic priest named Father E. Albert Hughes attempted an exorcism on Ronald at Georgetown University Hospital. During the ritual, Ronald supposedly broke a metal breadspring loose from the bed and used it to slash and seriously injure Father Hughes. Some versions even claim that the experiences caused Hughes to suffer psychological breakdown afterwards. Now, in early March, Ronald and his family traveled to St. Louis where they had relatives. This is where the documentary trail becomes considerably stronger. On March 9th, Father Raymond Bishop personally met Ronald for the first time. That's an important date because Bishop is associated with the famous 29-page diary or case report that provides much of what we know about the exorcism. Anything that in Bishop's account describing what happened before March 9th was information he received from Ronald's family or other witnesses rather than something he personally observed. So two days later, Father William Bowdram became involved. Bowter apparently became convinced that something extraordinary was happening and approached Archbishop Joseph Ritter for permission to perform a formal exorcism. So on March 16th, Ritter officially authorized him to conduct a Roman Catholic rite. So whatever we think caused Ronald's behavior, this part is real. The thirteen-year-old boy did undergo an official authorized Catholic exorcism in 1949. The rites continued repeatedly over the following weeks, sometimes at the home of Ronald's family, relatives, and later at Alexian Brothers Hospital in St. Louis. And according to Bishop's account and the recollections of priests who participated, Ronald would violently resist prayers, spit at the priests, shout obscenities and struggle against the adults attempting to restrain him. He was sometimes described as displaying strength that seemed unusual for a boy his age. Now the scratches were among the strangest claims. Mark supposedly appeared on Ronald's body during the ordeal, sometimes taking recognizable shapes or even forming words. One of the most famous accounts describes the word hell appearing to scratch across his skin. That brings me to the what happened in the movie when they remove her shirt and it says help me on her on her belly. So I'm guessing that's probably where that came from. It's interesting that they chose that instead of putting hell, but I guess help me is a little more compelling because it's she's like calling from within, you know, to help her, you know, because she's not in control of her body right now at that point. Another famous claim is that Ronald suddenly began speaking languages he had never learned before, particularly Latin. But one of the priests who was actually there complicates the story considerably. Father Walter Holloran participated directly in the exorcism and later became one of the most valuable eyewitnesses to what happened. Holloran remembered Ronald being genuinely violent, and at one point Ronald struck him hard enough to injure his nose. Holloran also remembered scratches and other disturbing behavior. But decades later, Hollorand was surprisingly cautious about what he believed had happened or what he had witnessed. He wouldn't flatly declare that Ronald was definitely being possessed. He also did not remember Ronald suddenly speaking fluent Latin. His recollection was close to Ronald repeating words or phrases that he could have heard from the priests themselves. Hollorand also could rule out that the possibility that some of the scratches had been self-inflicted. What are your thoughts on that? It's all

How Reliable Were the Witnesses?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

pretty weird.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

It it it reminds me too, uh, as you're talking about this, uh I kind of forgot that they actually I remember maybe maybe I'm wrong, but I remember them coining this film as based on a true story. Yeah. So it was that, right? I'm not remembering that wrong. Okay. So that that also is what just totally added to the creepiness of it. It's the same thing with the movie The Entity. You remember that one? I think uh that happened to a woman here in Texas, and that was based on a true story too.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah, I think I remember that correctly too. I could be wrong, but I I thought I remember that was one of the silly points that that's what I remember.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

We should probably look at that.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

And I think that actually amplified the scary factor. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That makes Holleran particularly interesting because the skepticism isn't coming from someone who arrived decades later trying to debunk the story. It's coming from one of the eyewitnesses who were there during the exorcism. So Falter uh Baldram apparently saw things differently. He remembered being much more convinced that Ronald's case represented genuine possession. Years later, William Peter Blately would correspond directly with Baldwin while researching the novel that eventually became the exorcist. So even among people who personally participated, there wasn't necessarily a complete agreement on what happened during those exorcisms.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Yeah, and that's a problem with really all stories. And that's that's one of the big things that that makes me skeptical of a great many things. Even when people talk about stuff, it's still coming from something that I did not experience myself. Like like my UFO experience, you know, I I literally dictated what happened most of the guts of that right after it happened. Because I didn't even trust my own memory. Definitely raises questions,

Memory, Testimony, and Skepticism

SPEAKER_01 39:19

you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Well, yeah, we're human and like we've talked about before, that's just our our minds fill in blanks. You know, we and the more we tell the story, sometimes we even un unintentionally uh add little things, and it's just like the telephone, you know, game, right? And the tin can, you know, the uh the story changes by the time you get to the end. And that happens to with ourselves, you know, even though we don't intend to do that, it's not on purpose, it just it just happens. That's just the way our brains work. So the rights continued through March and into April. So this kind of coincides with what uh in the movie they would talk about the father who came to uh the one who had the most experience in the movie, it said he spent six months working on one exorcism. So this kind of lends some credibility to that. So yeah, they continued through March and April, and Ronald was baptized Catholic on April 1st and reportedly received his first communion the following day. He briefly returned toward the Washington area, but when the servants were said to continue, he was brought back to St. Louis and the exorcisms resumed. Can you believe that? You've been baptized and you've had communion and you go back and then the things start up again.

Why Did the Exorcisms Continue?

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Um what does that tell you? What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Well, it could be it could be that the child is just acting up, you know, and and uh that it's not real. It also be that it's maybe a powerful demon and it and it's not easily that's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Both of those are good points. Yeah. And and impossibilities. And also in my mind, maybe the techniques of the religion don't work. Yeah. So let's say what you said if it's a powerful demon, if that's really the case, then those techniques don't work. So what does that tell you? It kind of makes me think of, well, going back to do we really understand what reality really is? Or are we sticking to old ideas and doctrines and techniques that maybe they have some effect because they alert the the faith in us that ha maybe has power, has emotional power, but not because of the of the religion so much perhaps, but more because we're tapping into uh little bits and pieces of how reality really works. So yeah, so that kind of jumps out to me. You know, it's like i i it could be a little kid fooling around, or you know, if it is a powerful demon, then maybe we need to try something new. To their credit though, it's like how often has this happened, and again, if they're pulling this stuff up from like exorcisms that happened a long time ago, even in nineteen forty-nine, I don't know what exorcisms happened before that time frame wise, but uh they don't really know what they're doing anyway.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

So can't really blame the religion for that, you know, or the techniques, but I said that's a fair point because if it takes months and months uh to exercise a demon, that brings into question, well, how powerful are is the forces that are so that would imply that the demonic forces are more powerful.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Yeah, or or that that the demonic forces, their their techniques are way beyond the understanding of the people trying to fight it. Meaning they they're not even in the same on the same plane of understanding as what the way they're approaching it from you know we are we are subservient to our God as opposed to we are the god, you know, we are part of it, and maybe this thing only has power over us because we allow it. You know? Yeah. Could be, you know, or it could be a kid who's just doesn't want to look dumb and he keeps keeps it up.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Something like that. Right. He's like, oh no, you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Like, oh I gotta keep this going, or I'm gonna look really dumb.

The Final Exorcism — April 18, 1949

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Right. So uh that brings us to the final fight. So on April 18th, 1949, Bishop's account describes a climac confrontation during which Ronald appeared to experience some sort of spiritual intervention involving St. Michael, the archangel. Afterward, Ronald reportedly announced that the presence was gone. And according to the priest and the family, the disturbance behavior stopped. That's where the historical case essentially ends. So what we are left with 70 years later is an extraordinary strange story with two very different sides. On one hand, we know that a real 13-year-old boy went through weeks and sounds like months of church authorized exorcisms. Priests who were actually there described violent behavior, physical struggles, unexplained markings. At least some of those witnesses apparently remained convinced that they had encountered something supernatural. On the other hand, And we have no recordings of the supposed voices, no verified photographs of the supernatural events, no publicly available medical records, no proof that the scratches couldn't have been seen or self-inflicted, and serious questions surrounding some of the most famous stories, especially the alleged first exorcism involving Father Hughes. Years later, people who had known Ronald described him as intelligent and something of a prankster. And after Ronald's death, a woman who was close to him claimed that he had privately told her that possessions had been something he concocted. But even that isn't recorded confession. It's another person's story told decades afterwards. So we're left with the question that has surrounded this case ever since. What actually happened to Ronald Hunkler in 1949? After hearing the story, what part of the case is the hardest for you to believe?

The Hardest Claims to Believe

SPEAKER_01 44:53

I guess the scratches that appear on their own, that kind of stuff. I'm probably the most skeptical of those things because everything else can fit under the umbrella of fiction. It's just like somebody could, you know, write about some some of that stuff and you there's no way to verify it. So I'll just take that for what it is as a possibility. But the scratches appearing by themselves, even though I've seen videos of ghost huntings where some things have happened like that, that goes beyond, in my opinion, what would be allergic reactions, because I know sometimes you can have an allergic reaction and get whelps. Uh I've experienced some of that myself, but they didn't look like gashes and scratches. And that has typically don't uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

They typically don't appear immediately.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Right. Like all all of a sudden. But in some of the ghost hunting videos I've seen, uh they do show up like like they would feel uh extreme burning and then someone looked their shirt and there was a scratch. Now that could be that could be them doing the Hollywood thing, you know. But if not, then it would be something like that, I would say. You know, and and some of them even bleed. Yeah. You know, which is pretty bizarre. But but in this case, since it's you know it's old stories, it's just honestly, I just want to experience it myself. Because because I've I've experienced weird stuff too, like just like you. And I've I had experience an audio experience one time where I was following the sound that was moving across the wall, went diagonal across the wall. And if anyone knows how walls are built, you can't do that if you're an animal. And it wasn't s it wasn't skittering, it was uh a tempo of footsteps. And then I I followed it on the other side of this wall and onto a piece of furniture. And I'm literally like this close, like looking at it with my ears to make sure that I could tell where the sound was coming from because it was just freaking me out. But I was fascinated. How old were you? I was probably twenty-one, twenty-two at

Steven’s Own Strange Experience

SPEAKER_01 46:53

the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

That's the house that you're that your parents live in?

SPEAKER_01 46:56

No, this is a friend's house. I was staying the night. And we had messed with the Ouija board. I didn't really mess with it. But they uh they had talked about before we messed with the Ouija board, they had talked about uh a haunting of someone they that they believe is haunting the place. It was a two-story house, their parents' house. And a friend of theirs had passed away on uh in a motorcycle accident down the road. And uh they claimed that they saw him, like in their closet. And then they had a fire. I think the fire either reignited the either stopped it or reignited it. I can't remember, but then they renovated it and they didn't have any anything happened since until my experience. We messed with the Ouija board and I'm I'm down there on the downstairs couch and I'm looking up, you know, and the lights are out, uh, and there's there was a hole. They cut a hole in the ceiling so you could see some of the piping because they were working on some pipes. So there's a hole right there, and I'm laying there, I'm like, I'm just saying, I'm like, God man, a freaking brat better not come down out of the hole and land on my head. And and while I'm thinking that, I start hearing the sound and it's coming from the ceiling over to my right. So I followed it, and the wall's right here. I got up and I was following it, and it was exactly how they described the sounds that they used to hear. The cadence. Because I made sure I'm like, that is not an animal. And then it went right towards the hole beyond the hole. I didn't see an animal, and then went down the wall and then across. And it's when it I went around. There was a little they had a little parlor bar type thing there on the other side, and that's where it went off onto like a built-in bar into the wall and then onto a piece of furniture, and it stopped there. But by that time I had called up and said, Hey, I just kind of woke the house up, and these the girls they were all like running downstairs and they're like freaking out. I'm like, hey, check this out. And I'm like, you know, real close with my ear. Did you hear it? Oh yeah, they heard it. They were freaking out. Like one of them wanted to exit the building. Yeah, she wanted to leave the house right then. But I was like, shh, I'm trying to listen to this, you know. But see that too bad we can't stay, baby. Yeah, too bad we can't stay. But see, that's that is what's fascinating, is the things that that happen like that that really are bizarre to me. I want to experience it. So when I'm hearing these stories, they're intriguing, but uh they don't move me just because somebody said so. You know, it now if it came from someone like you or or someone else that I knew really well, then I would it's credibility would go way up. You know, sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Yeah, source matters.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Yeah, source certainly matters, but we we don't know these people. We don't know who wrote it, you know. So really it's it's a it leads to a well done and really creepy movie.

Ouija Boards, Intention, and Belief

SPEAKER_00 49:46

So what so I my thoughts and see if you agree with this or not, but my thoughts on the Ouija board is it has nothing to do with the Ouija board. The Ouija board is just a object, a focal point. It's all about your intention. You could have a glass of water there, and if you do the same, you know, if you have bring that energy, that negative energy or positive energy, that's what you're gonna receive in return. You know, I I think uh I 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

Yeah, I think the Ouija word is obvious uh uh you know focal point, like uh uh well it's just like when when when you're when you're saying a prayer of some kind and you use like you get down on your knees and you you pray in the way that you do, it's really just I just think it's an assist. Yeah. So or if they or they have the beads, like I know they count the beads for some reason, it's an assist. You know, could you effectively do that without the beads? Probably. Maybe if you could visualize it and you can keep up, but it's just an aid to help concentrate your energy that's really the source of coming from you know, when you're trying to flowing through you in some way.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

When you're trying to cast fireball, you know, you don't really need those components, but they really do help give you more.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Well, I don't need any anything to cast lightning bolt.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Well, that's true. That but I mean that's you.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Yeah, I can cast it from wherever I want, if you know what I mean. If you catch you my trip.

Could Ronald Have Faked It?

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Um bolt. So the fact that they that so I will say this the fact that there's no medical records, no church, that doesn't bother me because that's not something you can really get anyway, right? Right. You're not gonna get medical records unless I mean I think even the 70s they probably had protection rights on on your medical records and stuff. And some of the you know, they didn't uh go to the hospital, right? They're just they're just um this is all happening in the church or in the uh sorry, in the hotel or the hospital or the uh the home. So I don't know. I don't uh that doesn't discourage me that that doesn't sway me one way or the other, whether this is real or not. I will say though, it would really, really, really be hard. It's not I'm not saying it's impossible. I think it would be hard for a child to sustain this level of deception for months, weeks and weeks and months and months, and have the the weight of the sh of the the expense involved of his parents traveling back and forth, back and forth, and time in the hospital and all these people's time and effort. You know, that that child has to be pretty evil and pretty um well, I'm sure it's it's possible, but uh it lends me to Morse credibility that something extraordinary probably did happen because yeah, you could pull a prank for a day, but to sustain it over months and then all of a sudden just stops, you know, it's it would be difficult to do that.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Uh I wouldn't say it would be impossible, but I'm curious. I'm curious as to what his physical state would be because if they start some positions, they talk they talk about where uh people become emaciated and then they they die. So that's so that's and if you can get medical records that says hey, they technically they have a clean bill of health as far as like no disorders that they can detect. Well that that has credibility because there's a physical thing going on, this person's dying. They clearly don't want to. There's nothing physically wrong with them. But but again, it makes me think of uh the uh the Salem witch trials. Like, weren't there like some girls involved with that? Uh how long did that go on for? How long did they carry that on for? Well, the Salem witch trial are you talking about the uh the girls that that were uh accusing people of being witches and they were take getting these people based off what these girls had said and uh and I have to look this up again because I'm I'm pulling this through the cobwebs, but uh they would burn people at like kill people because of what these girls said and they carried it on. I don't know how long, I can't remember how long they carried it on for. Just some evil stuff, you know, that these these little girls did, you know.

The Salem Witch Trials Comparison

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Well anyway.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

I I don't I don't I have to look that up too because I don't remember specifically. But the Salem

What Happened to Ronald Afterwards?

SPEAKER_00 54:00

witch trials was uh you know that happened that was a whole period, you know, and it wasn't just these girls, it was you know, you could be turned in as a witch for any reason whatsoever, and you know, uh it wasn't just involving these girls, which I think I have a vague memory of what you're talking about, but yeah, I think we should research that and come back and talk about that. Yeah, but um yeah, so let me so I got actually curious though, like what what happened to Ronald afterwards? You know, this suddenly stopped. Well, what happened to him? What happened to his life? So see if this changed your perspective on things. After weeks of the exorcism uh as a teenager, he apparently returned to a normal life. He went to college, became an engineer, and spent nearly 40 years working for NASA at Goodard Space Flight Center. NASA records actually show his name on spacecraft materials, research, and patents for a high temperature ceramic insulating material. He eventually married, had a family, and spent most of his adult life trying to keep his connection to the famous case private. Ronald died in 2020, and only after did his real identity come wily known. So does that change your perspective on the story or him at all?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

No, because I I think uh if if he were embarrassed, you're not gonna want to return to a subject uh either for either reason, like it really happened, you you don't want that attention, or you lied about it and you were just faking it the whole time, that would be embarrassing too. So something you're famous for. So either either way, it could be either way, and it doesn't change my opinion at all.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

That's true. I didn't think about that. Yeah, if he if he made it up, he definitely doesn't want uh you know the fact they made it a national best-selling book and then now a movie. Uh yeah, I hadn't thought about that. I just think it was interesting that let's say he let's just say for the sake of argument, he did fake it. You know, to become a NASA engineer, you have to have good critical thinking skills. Logical, you're a logical thinker, right? Probably good at math and stuff. And that's where I'm struggling with is those two things being a you know highly creative and come up with this elaborate story and this elaborate hoax that lasted months and months, and traveled across the country and involving dozens of priests and hospital stays. And so that's where I struggle. That's where I'm I'm still leaning towards it. May have been a real phenomenon. Um, but you make a good point. If if he was faking it, you definitely also would not want to be be brought up into public mind as well. Yeah, well, I guess only Ronald knows, really, for real. Unfortunately, he passed uh in 2020, so we'll never know.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Well, well, some some people made a lot of money off of his uh his efforts, you know, or what happened to him. Yeah, whatever happened. Uh considerable, considerable amount of money. And it's a that's probably what it's it's art art wise, it's a good movie, so that that came about because of it too, you know.

Our Final Verdict: Was Ronald Possessed?

SPEAKER_00 57:06

It was a cultural phenomenon, you know, and still kind of is, you know, some reason. So come to the famous part of our episode, Steven. On a scale from one to ten, how real do you think the real exorcism, what happened to Ronald on a scale of one to how much believe how how do you much do you believe that that really happened?

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Uh I'll have to give it a six.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Yeah. I think that's where I'm at as well. Just because we don't have a lot of evidence to support it other than you know what the priests said themselves. Yeah, you know, there could be some bias there too, you're right. They don't want to be made to be look like fools.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah, and we're just we're just talking about this particular story. I mean, there's plenty of stuff I've seen, you know, on online and that that's pretty convincing in other ways. So it's yeah, it's not that I don't believe in the phenomena, it's just that I'm open to it. But we're just talking about this particular story. So Right.

Tell Us Your Story

SPEAKER_00 58:02

And uh for our viewers and listeners, yeah, same thing. Uh put in the comments uh how you'd rate the the real story of Ronald. Do you think he do you think he made it up or do you think it was a real phenomenon? Uh and likewise, if if you've had an experience like this or you know of someone who's had an experience like this, a possession or uh something incredibly spooky or creepy that happened, you know, reach out to us at hello at inquiryampodcast.com. We'd love to hear your story. This is a safe place, so if you don't want us to share the information, uh we won't. But we'd love to hear from you and maybe feature your story on an episode or even have you as a guest. Who knows? What do you think about that, Stephen?

SPEAKER_01 58:43

That sounds good. Yeah. Like Michael said, there's no judgment. So and we will keep it secret if that's what you want to do.

Episode Wrap-Up & Amelia Earhart Preview

SPEAKER_00 58:53

It's more of uh, you know, just research and and information gathering, if if nothing else. So so that's a wrap. So today we discussed the exorcist, our memories of first seeing it, how it holds up today, the cultural phenomenon surrounding the release, William Peter Blately, and the real 1949 case of Ronald Huckler that inspired the story. We also looked at what was documented, what may have grown into legend, and the question that still hangs over the case was Ronald truly possessed or was something else going on? Coming up next, one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in aviation history, the disappearance of Amelia Earhart. In 1937, Amelia Earhart and her navigator Fred Noonan vanished over the Pacific Ocean without a trace. But what the clues of their fate has been there all along. New research, intriguing evidence, and decades of investigation may be bringing us closer than ever to understanding what really happened. We'll separate fact from speculation and separate what may have happened during her final hours. Join us November 9th as we do a deep dive on the disappearance of Amelia Earhart. Listen to us wherever you hear podcasts or watch us on YouTube. And if you're enjoying Enquarium, please remember to like and subscribe and share with a friend. It really helps us grow and helps us to continue bringing you extraordinary stories just like this from around the world.